Welcome to the 10th episode of the Slices of Time Street Photography podcast. First, a quick thank you to everyone listening in. A big thank you to everyone who has sent me feedback on their likes and dislikes; I greatly appreciate that. I’m happy to have made it to 10 episodes already, so let’s hope that number keeps growing.
Today, I’m joined by Matt Hall, aka the13thsecond, a street photographer from Margate. His work speaks to me because of his colorful and maybe even cheery photos. Always people-oriented, yet also almost entirely anonymous.
Follow The13thsecond:
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the13thsecond/
- Website: https://www.the13thsecond.co.uk/
Listen to the episodes on:
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4QMO6fGiNG9ONpml4g90jj
- Acast: https://shows.acast.com/slices-of-time-street-photography-podcast
- Deezer: https://www.deezer.com/en/show/1001125911
- Youtube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuRVp34UK3slv3Xfp8g_77opdIlUvfRWU&si=X9eI9mETmt86b_ZW
You can follow me on several social media for updates about the episodes:
- BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/fredpaulussen.bsky.social
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fredpaulussen/
- My website: www.fredericpaulussen.be
Timestamps of this episode with Matt Hall / The13thsecond
00:00 Introduction to Street Photography and Matt Hall
02:57 The Evolution from Architecture to Street Photography
06:06 The Influence of Social Media on Photography
09:03 Defining a Photographer: Hobbyist vs. Professional
11:50 The Artistic Approach to Street Photography
14:57 Creativity in Editing and Shooting Styles
17:56 Layering and Composition in Street Photography
21:05 Teaching and Fast-Tracking Photography Skills
23:51 The Technical Aspects of Photography
26:53 Silhouettes and the Element of Mystery
27:56 Confrontations in Street Photography
31:08 The Art of Shooting in Crowds
36:00 Learning from Others: Workshops and Collaboration
38:55 Silhouettes and Privacy in Photography
42:34 Nostalgia and the Evolution of Photography
48:16 Workshops: Sharing Knowledge and Experience
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Matt. Don’t forget to subscribe to be updated about upcoming episodes. Reach out via social media if you want to share any questions or ideas.
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Podcast Transcript
Frederic Paulussen (00:00)
So welcome to the 10th episode of Slice of Time Street Photography podcast. First, a quick thank you to everyone listening in. A big thank you to everyone who has sent me feedback on their likes and dislikes. I greatly appreciate that. I’m happy to have made it to 10 episodes already. So let’s hope that number keeps growing, obviously. Today I’m joined by Matt Hall, aka the 13 seconds. Street photography
street photographer, sorry, from Margate. I think his work speaks to me because of the colorful and maybe even cheery photos he makes. Always people oriented but also almost entirely anonymous which I very much appreciate in his work. So hi Matt, could you maybe introduce yourself shortly a bit?
Matt Hall (00:45)
Yeah, sure. Hi Fred. Thanks for inviting me on your podcast. Yeah, I said I’m Matt Hall. I’m a street photographer from the UK. I’ve been working in street photography probably for about nine, eight and a half, nine years now. And I kind of refined my style to a point now where, yeah, I can kind of go out and just look for things that I don’t know. It’s not, I’m not that reliant on light as much as I used to or location.
So yeah, beforehand I was very much a case of architecture, get the human element in there. But now it’s, yeah, I’m quite happy to wander around and then just look for things. I’m also, I’m in a lucky position whereby photography is my job now. I spent 25 years in the construction industry, but those days behind me and now I can be full-time creative.
Frederic Paulussen (01:27)
and like immediately.
is it really like full time street photography or?
Matt Hall (01:45)
Full time photography, probably 80 % of it I would say is street photography. I run workshops, one to ones as well as groups all over the country. But yeah, the other photography I do more the commission work or some more commercial stuff. I can still retain my style. So I’m not tied to any rules. I can use natural light or any available light.
Frederic Paulussen (02:08)
Okay.
Matt Hall (02:14)
I can hold onto my style as opposed to just knocking out any generic photograph.
Frederic Paulussen (02:20)
Yeah, that’s cool. And I was curious because you mentioned like you weren’t really depending on light anymore and that you made a switch from architecture to what you do now. Was that like a deliberate choice or was it more like a natural evolution?
Matt Hall (02:36)
Yeah, it was well, I guess both because to start with it was me going out when I was shooting in Cambridge where I grew up and I lived for like all of my life until five years ago. I’d be going out and I’d be taking photographs of the architecture. And it was only when the human element kind of snuck in to almost ruining my photographs. I thought that this is this is actually better with people in it. So then it just became a challenge to sort of learn how to develop.
Frederic Paulussen (02:57)
Okay.
Matt Hall (03:06)
I think there’s where I could ensure there’s human element in it. And then in true candid style, obviously it’s like I need to do it without them knowing that I’m doing it.
Frederic Paulussen (03:10)
Okay, so.
So first you were into architecture and then it kind of evolved into street photography or… Okay.
Matt Hall (03:23)
Yeah, yeah, it was very much architecture.
It was very much me walking around the streets of Cambridge, almost appreciating where I lived for the first time. Because I’ve never walked aimlessly around the city before. I’ve always lived there, but never appreciated it. But I’ve told the story quite a few times now. The main reason I was out and about was because my youngest child at the time just wouldn’t sleep in the house or in a buggy.
So I would literally strap him to my chest in a sling and then walk around Cambridge for hours just so he could get some rest and we could get a bit of peace and quiet. And I bought a camera to document my children growing up and I just started seeing all the architecture and also the crazy characters about. So I just thought I’d start taking the camera out on these walks and it kind of moved on and on from there.
Frederic Paulussen (04:01)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (04:20)
I knew I was doing street photography but I didn’t actually know street photography was necessarily a genre until I stumbled across an Elliot Irwitt book in bookshop when I was trying to buy a how-to photography book almost to improve my photography and then from then on I was hooked.
Frederic Paulussen (04:40)
Okay cool, and was there like a history of photography before buying the camera for your kids or was it like in your family or whatever?
Matt Hall (04:49)
When I was younger I just used to have some 35mm point and shoot cameras. I found some of the photos from those days and they’re all terrible, all blurry, all out of focus, know, rushed shots of my childhood friends and so yeah I didn’t know what I was doing at all but I remember having lots and lots of point and shoot cameras kicking around the house and then we had like a Polaroid camera almost
Frederic Paulussen (05:12)
Okay.
Matt Hall (05:15)
gimmick kind of thing when they came out. I’ve actually still got it now. But then I went through a lot of wilderness years where photography wasn’t… I appreciated photography but I wasn’t actually practicing it.
Frederic Paulussen (05:29)
Yeah, it wasn’t really like in your life or something wasn’t like that you would go to museums specifically or buy photo books. It was just like something that existed or yeah.
Matt Hall (05:38)
Yeah, it was
just there and I didn’t appreciate it. But it was, I suppose it was when camera phones started coming out, where was everybody had a camera and you started taking photos. And also Instagram, I guess, like one of my friends put me onto Instagram ages when it first came out. And I just thought it was the most ridiculous thing ever. I just didn’t understand why you needed it. I’m quite like that, really. I’m stuck in my ways.
But it was quite fun, it was just another way of communicating with someone, with pictures when it first came out.
Frederic Paulussen (06:12)
Yeah, so Instagram
kind of influenced your photography in that sense or?
Matt Hall (06:18)
in a way it kind of reintroduced me to photography because of the accessibility of it because you’ve got the camera there and it will be a terrible camera when it first came out. And yeah and then from there I suppose you’re just absorbing lots and lots and lots of images. in those days it wasn’t street photography for me but was was photographs of my friends doing things and you know it’s always
Frederic Paulussen (06:21)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (06:46)
just became fun and accessible and then when my first child was born I started taking photos of him with I can’t even remember what phone it was at the time but there was an app called Hipstomatic you might be aware of it and that was quite fun because then you could add like specialist filters and like lens simulations and whatnot and yeah so I had fun playing around with that but you know I wanted to get into photography
Frederic Paulussen (06:49)
Yeah.
Heard of it, yeah.
Matt Hall (07:16)
So that’s when I went and bought an entry level Fuji film camera.
Frederic Paulussen (07:25)
very cool yeah and
what what what made you click like at what point did you find yourself able to call yourself like a photographer but also a street photographer because I find a lot of people struggle with that question
Matt Hall (07:43)
Yeah, yeah, me too really. It’s only when I started making money out of it, I suppose, because it’s a common trope at the moment. Everyone is a photographer. A lot of people, everyone’s got cameras, everyone’s got, or not everyone’s got cameras, but everyone’s got camera phones and a lot of people have got cameras. And if you go on holiday, everyone’s got camera in their hand, they’re all taking photographs. So if I was like that, I probably wouldn’t call myself a
photographer I’d call myself just someone with a camera but now I’m actually making money from it I’m a bit more confident in saying I am actually a photographer that’s what I do because I’m making a living out of it.
Frederic Paulussen (08:26)
Yeah, okay. Well, to me it’s like at some point you have to call yourself a photographer first before you can make money, I think. But yeah, I get what you’re saying.
Matt Hall (08:37)
There’s hobby photographers as well, you can say, because I have a lot of people on my workshops and they say well I’m just a hobby photographer and you look at their work and you just think man your work is better than my work, know what you’re talking about and I think if it’s taking that step isn’t it and pushing yourself out of a comfort zone and thinking well I could actually make a living out of this but not a lot of people can and it is quite tricky making money out of any kind of photography really.
Frederic Paulussen (09:03)
Yeah, I do it full time as well, but street photography for me is a hobby and it’s like I do portraits and event photography for corporate. it’s totally different, but it’s not always the easiest. But that’s for me, like street photography is like, it’s a hobby. take it fairly serious as well, obviously. So for me, it’s like very interesting to hear all these people talk about it.
And in that case, because you do street photography like 80 % of the time, said, like, you feel like, and it’s like street photography is an artistic discipline. Mostly I find these are like for you a pressure to do it like full time. Is it like something like, how do you keep it fresh for yourself?
Matt Hall (09:51)
No, so when I do it full time, I’m literally teaching people and showing them how to shoot in the style that I shoot because as you’re aware, there’s lots of different types of street photography. I think some are more attuned to be able to transfer the knowledge and how to do it than others. I think the juxtaposition style is really tricky. You could walk for weeks and weeks and weeks with a student and not actually show them anything.
Frederic Paulussen (09:56)
Okay.
Yeah.
Matt Hall (10:20)
take a photograph of you can show them maybe the pointers and anticipations what to look out for that could work but at end of the day they’re probably going to go away with not a lot of an idea what’s going on they need to practice and be out there all the time whereas i think my style of photography because it’s a little bit more abstract and creative on that is you could actually just go and park yourself somewhere and wait for the situation to happen
you know, because I’m working with layering and textures and all those sort of things. They’re everywhere, so as long as you continue to see those, you can then start building a photograph.
Frederic Paulussen (11:01)
Yeah, very true. That’s what I find cool in your work. That it’s very layered indeed, it’s very colorful kind of abstract. The colorful aspect as well, it jumps in my eye, like you don’t have any black and white photos online I think. Is there like a reason?
Matt Hall (11:21)
They’re not
old ones. So when I started, I was shooting color. But then when I discovered street photography as a genre, and was looking into Irwit and Bresson and looking through all these books, everything was black and white. So in my head, I just thought, that’s how it needs to be. So I was out shooting monochrome for maybe about 18 months.
Frederic Paulussen (11:48)
Okay.
Matt Hall (11:50)
Yeah, and that’s, but it’s only when my, when I started looking more into street photography and I started looking at all the masters that are working in color, you know, that’s when I just thought, well, why am I shooting black and white? This is so much nicer. They said the world’s in color. And so, yeah, I haven’t looked back. I haven’t actually shot monochrome in ages and I’m not even tempted. Obviously I shoot in raw and so there’s, there’s always the option to go black and white, but I’m never tempted to think, oh, what does this look like in black and white?
Frederic Paulussen (12:21)
No true, yeah can imagine that. I also think like your style is very color oriented indeed, it’s like Henri Cartier-Berson, was like, I read his biography, he was infamous for hating on color photography even, so it’s maybe not always the best introduction to street photography if you like color, yeah. Like the guy made great photos, but yeah.
Yeah so for the and the color for me it’s always like you keep like a natural style it’s not too aggressive like very saturated like for example Forgot his name Saul Leiter he’s like very saturated but for you it’s like this very it’s a lot of blue but still kind of like a cozy warm blue i find
Matt Hall (13:17)
As far as editing goes I don’t really tweak colours very much. I shoot Fujifilm and so I do shoot with a simulation on. So it’s very much a of what I see through the camera is what I’m taking the photo of. That’s going be what the image is.
Frederic Paulussen (13:33)
Yeah.
So you use the JPEGs or?
Matt Hall (13:38)
No, I shoot in raw but I mean a lot of the time my tweaks are minor but yeah it’s just a habit of mine. Like said before I’m incredibly lazy. I probably could and should just shoot JPEG and just leave it at that. But yeah sometimes when I go into Lightroom the editing suite I’ll sometimes throw it back into the film simulation but other times I just think wow looks nice as it is. But I quite like the muted.
colours and muted tones. think a lot of, there seems to be quite a lot of fashion, especially with street photography at the moment where there’s a bit more saturation or there’s a lot of blues and everything is looking a lot more cinematic, which is great. mean, you know, awesome images to look at, but it’s not a true reflection of what they’re taking a photograph of. I think a lot of that is lost.
Frederic Paulussen (14:34)
Yeah, no, but I think it’s cool because I enjoy editing quite a bit, I find it fun. I try not to over-saturate as well, but it’s fun to hear how you say your editing is minimal and that’s okay. I find that in street photography there’s a lot of strong opinions, but I think most of it is you can just decide for yourself, there’s no right or wrong.
Matt Hall (14:57)
.
Frederic Paulussen (15:04)
mostly. So that’s cool.
Matt Hall (15:08)
It’s all about creativity isn’t it? Some people find their creativity in their editing suite and really get a buzz off of that and they love to spend the time there. I’d rather spend the time on the street and try and get it right there. I find editing really really tedious.
Frederic Paulussen (15:10)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (15:30)
to the point where my eyes are closing looking at photographs. If I’ve got a lot of images to edit, yeah, just can’t bear it. It’s wild work. If I can’t edit something in a matter of minutes, then I’m out.
Frederic Paulussen (15:38)
Yeah.
You’re done with the photo. I kind of know it. So you were talking about creativity and like documenting what’s out in the streets. But do you, I recently saw this one question somewhere and was like, how much of your photography is actually documenting the street and how much of it is actually documenting yourself? And I found it very interesting because in your work, find there’s like a very, regardless of where you are, there’s a…
A solid, I’d call it, yeah, in Dutch it’s a red thread, like leading threads through all your work that’s kind of similar no matter if you’re in Cambridge or in Margate. So how much of it is…
Matt Hall (16:29)
Yeah, well I don’t see myself as, I don’t think I’m documenting the street at all, to be honest. think if anything I’m now, maybe I used to more when I started out, or if you see a scene unfold in front of you, obviously yeah, there’s the photograph. But for me, yeah, I’m not that kind of street photographer, I am more of, I try to make a pretty picture. So I’ll be looking to see how much I can include into a shot, almost using it as a paintbrush.
Frederic Paulussen (16:35)
Okay.
Matt Hall (16:59)
using the camera as an art tool as opposed to a device for documenting what’s documenting the world as it is. know, I’ve said it before, there’s a lot of great photographers out there that are doing the documentary stuff and then there’s a big wide angle scenes and the juxtapositions and they’re amazing but I’m terrible at that sort of stuff. What I want to concentrate on is just challenging myself and making sure what I want to include is in the shot.
try and include as much interest as possible.
Frederic Paulussen (17:32)
Yeah, and like how deliberate are your shots? Because like you mentioned, like you really go to look for layers. You go look, no worries. So you like, you look for layers, you look for all this kind of stuff. How much of the thinking process is like consciously and how much of it is kind of like instinctively for you.
Matt Hall (17:40)
might be the thing.
now I’d say it kind of is, it’s all consciously and instinctive. it’s almost like I could see a scene, so I’d look for a patch of light or a nice backlight, or sometimes call it a highlight, or a nice backdrop, something that I want to take a photograph of, but I also want to have the human element in it. So it’s been said before the different types of street photography, the hunting, the fishing, all that sort of stuff. So I’d say…
maybe 80 % of the time I’ll be doing the fishing, I’ll be sitting there waiting for a scene to unfold. But to me that’s fairly straightforward shot, just looking at a wall with someone walking past. So I’ll then think, okay, what can I stick in front of it? What can I add into the foreground to add a layer? Or is there an opportunity to get a reflection of what I’m looking at? And if so, can I get something in the foreground of the reflection?
you start building up that interest in that regard. So it’s all conscious, but before I go out there I’m always thinking how can I elevate a shot? How can I just take it away from just being one boring two dimensional photograph? How can I start out with an interest?
Frederic Paulussen (19:13)
Yeah,
yeah, great. like instead of just like someone in front of wall, how can you add a foreground element or a reflection somewhere or yeah, okay, I get it. Yeah.
Matt Hall (19:24)
ultimately you think about how you’re looking at a photograph I would like the person viewing my work to think how has he done that? what’s this? I know that location but how has he framed that? what’s he done to do that? but I’m always about using the environment that’s in front of me I don’t start taking things out of my pocket to create frames obviously that’s another brilliant creative
Frederic Paulussen (19:32)
Hmm.
Matt Hall (19:51)
out there why not but yeah I don’t do that I just look around and think okay there’s this tree I can shoot through the tree and use the leaves to create a frame or I don’t know there’s always mostly not always but nearly always an opportunity to create more interest than what you see in front of
Frederic Paulussen (19:59)
Yeah.
True, I agree on that, yeah.
Matt Hall (20:14)
And a lot of this
is actually all born from shooting Cambridge sort of non-stop for five years, you know. There’s a finite amount of streets and when you’re walking the same streets and you’re seeing the same scenes and a lot of the time the same people as well, you know, you see the same people walking the same streets, you’re there, you’re shooting kind of the same time of day every day because that’s your free time. You see the habits of people.
they might be on their lunch break as well, they might be walking around. So you’re seeing the same characters in the same scenes and it does get a bit tiresome, you start thinking so how can I change this up, how can I challenge myself, what can I do to keep it fresh and exciting for myself as a photographer. Otherwise you’re just taking the same shot over and over over again.
Frederic Paulussen (21:05)
True, yeah. That’s what I like for me. I find that I’m struggling in my small city, but if I just looked at the population sizes of Margate and Cambridge and it’s I’m still in a city that’s three or four times as big as that. So for me, it’s like putting that in perspective now for like, my city isn’t that small as I expect, but it’s cool that you instead of.
being annoyed about your city and or the size of your city and finding new places to go you find you challenge yourself for new angles I think that’s a very cool mindset is that something that you like kind of teach in your workshop or how do you teach it or how do you go about it was it like something you developed over the years or
Matt Hall (21:54)
It’s
something that I have to, yeah, I kind of like to to keep everything fresh and exciting and interesting for myself, it’s something I have to develop. Or I have to change up anyway. And that’s transferable. So yeah, when I moved to Margate, which is significantly smaller than Cambridge, and Cambridge is in itself quite small anyway, especially the city center where I used to shoot, you kind of have to know what to do with a small amount.
Frederic Paulussen (22:12)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (22:24)
You have to look harder, you you have to start focusing on the smallest things and that’s where for me the textures came into it. Although I do a lot of reflection work obviously and there’s windows, different windows all over the place. So it’s just giving yourself another perspective of what you would normally see. And like I say, it is transferable and to a degree my workshops all I’m doing is fast tracking people.
from where I was when I started out to kind where I am now and just saying, well, okay, you’re looking at that, but why don’t you look at this as well and start adding that into it. And yeah, it’s quite interesting seeing people’s reactions as, yeah, of course, why don’t I start looking at it like this? Obviously it takes a lot of practice and it takes to actually sort of get it right and to hit one location and shoot in that manner. But yeah, it’s a lot quicker than the years I spent.
Frederic Paulussen (23:23)
No, yeah, true. And I think that the workshop thing is like, as you said, like it’s not really like it’s fast tracking. It’s not really like telling people something like you can find or like most of the information, I think you can find on yourself if you take the time and if you take the practice and everything. But it’s yeah, the fast tracking is it’s like how you said that, because I think that’s how it usually is. And I think that’s the most valuable as well. Like
Street photography to me is like you need to practice it. If you don’t go out, it depends on your time schedule of course. If you have another job you can go out daily all the time. But it’s kind of like sports. The more you train, the better you get. And sometimes you need a personal coach. And that’s for me the workshop. So that’s great I think.
Matt Hall (24:07)
Definitely. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah sure and
even the professionals you know I get a lot of people that are way more advanced at photography than me. I still consider myself very basic, I know the exposure triangle and everything else on my camera is turned off you know. When I get people coming along and they say well why are you telling me to shoot f16 and blah blah blah and dynamic range this and you know this that and I was like well because you want to know how I shoot this is how I shoot just try it if you don’t like it.
Frederic Paulussen (24:26)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (24:43)
shoot and shoot however you want to shoot. It’s quite interesting and also some of them just talk about all the technical ins and outs of photography and I have no idea what they’re talking about because I’m not that kind of guy, I’m not a gear head, I’m not technical, I just know how to use my camera and that’s it.
Frederic Paulussen (24:55)
No, yeah.
Are you like, you put your settings in for the day and that’s that or?
Matt Hall (25:10)
No, no, I’m always tweaking. I’m always fiddling around. So like I say, to me, it’s like a paintbrush. I’ll be there and I’ll just be making small adjustments until I’m quite happy with where it is. And then it’s just waiting for the human element to enter the scene. And yeah, there’s my finished painting kind of thing.
Frederic Paulussen (25:12)
Phil, okay.
And is it like, do you sometimes stay like very long at places to find the right human element? Because like, I see a lot of strong silhouettes and profiles of the people.
So I can assume sometimes it’s waiting for five or six people to pass.
Matt Hall (25:49)
Yeah, sometimes. So the whole silhouette thing is, you know, even that can be quite boring to shoot. shooting, just taking a photograph of a person, for me, anyone can do that, just take a photograph of a person. The first challenge for me was to like know where to stand to create a silhouette and sort of appreciating where the shadow is, it’s the spot and then how to use it to create a silhouette. So that was the first stage, I guess, when I’m trying to
improve my photography. And shooting silhouettes is really unforgiving, very forgiving, because it doesn’t rely on having a strong subject as such. You know, can have someone with a massive nose like me and you can’t see it because they’re in a silhouette. They could be wearing a terrible shirt again like me, but you can’t see it because they’re a silhouette. And they could be walking away from you or towards you. No one really knows, male, female, you know, it’s…
Frederic Paulussen (26:31)
Yeah, to a degree, yeah.
Matt Hall (26:49)
There is quite a lot of advantages of shooting so I…
Frederic Paulussen (26:53)
Okay, yeah, I also find like for some silhouettes it’s the opposite like it’s it gives very strong Like I’m looking on your website. There’s like some like, you know, like a baseball hat or like a hat or or Women with a ponytail like it gives like a very strong idea of the subject without really revealing their face as well I find but yeah
Matt Hall (27:15)
Yep. Yeah. As,
as a element of mystery to like, is this person? Yeah. And from the point of view, if someone was to confront you and say, did you just take my photograph? You could say, did take my, your photograph. Do you want to see it? And because they have, they’re not fully visible, they’re not going to sort of moan about it, you know? Yeah. So that’s a little bit more of a, a little bit more of armor. If, yeah, if you are confronted by somebody angry.
they can see what we’re creative and it’s like, actually that’s pretty cool, you’re in front of it.
Frederic Paulussen (27:42)
Is that?
Yeah, but that’s not mainly the reason you started doing this. think like there wasn’t like a wave of bad reactions on the street that you were like, I have to change up.
Matt Hall (27:56)
No, no, no, I’ve only actually been confronted three times.
Frederic Paulussen (28:00)
I find
it funny how every street photographer has like the exact amount of like this is how much I got into trouble let’s say.
Matt Hall (28:08)
Yeah, yeah, you do remember. Yeah, the first couple was when I was a lot sneakier in my approach. And I shudder to just remembering how awful it was the way I used to shoot. So it’s sort of sneaky and unconsidered, you know, it wasn’t shooting from the hip, but similar style, you when you shoot from the hip, so you don’t have no idea what you’re taking a photograph of. And yeah, I was just walking past this.
guy a couple of times trying to get a photo of him and was like why are you taking a photo of me? delete that immediately and like yeah okay and it was from that moment I just thought I’m not going to shoot like this because it’s not fun it’s not considered on yeah it’s not photography so yeah I vowed never to shoot that way again and I never have it’s always more I’m obvious hiding in plain sight just taking photographs of people and just using other techniques to stay hidden
Frederic Paulussen (29:07)
Yeah, and so that interaction with the guy really made you like switch up consciously like, okay, like I have to, what I’m doing is not really entirely correct or always like a longer period.
Matt Hall (29:20)
Yeah,
I mean morally it wasn’t correct, artistically it wasn’t correct. was just terrible. You could fill a memory card up. I like some people still shoot that way. I see people shooting in that kind of way now. And I kind of to shake my head and hope that they change their ways as well. Because you can fill a memory card up during the day and then you just get home and then you’re just looking through the photos.
almost hoping to find a good one. Then you can say, this is street photography. Yeah, okay. It street photography, but it’s not, I don’t know. It’s just not good. It’s not, it’s not good practice. It might.
Frederic Paulussen (29:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, there’s no artistic value, but there’s also no documentation value or reporting value. It’s just a photo of someone in the street.
Matt Hall (30:10)
100 % yeah
so yeah that was that was the last it wasn’t the last time actually that was the time that made me change my shooting approach and then last time was just a very drunk lady shouting at me for taking photographs of children which I don’t generally do but again it was a silhouette type affair in a fun fair and yeah anyway
Frederic Paulussen (30:27)
Okay.
But she wasn’t like related to the children. She was just like a random.
Matt Hall (30:38)
I don’t know, there
was a lot of children, she had about eight children following around. But like I she was quite drunk and she went around every, she said she’d told everybody that worked in the fair what I was doing. And I just tried to explain to what the situation was. And I didn’t leave, I carried on shooting and I actually went around talking to everybody there as well. And maybe everyone was kind of happy with what I was doing and my approach. was just, yeah, it was just an uncomfortable situation.
Frederic Paulussen (30:42)
Okay.
Yeah, I can imagine. like I was curious earlier but not because but now you mentioned it like I was curious to I was gonna ask like you never do like events or like stuff happening in the streets but now you mentioned like the fair so because I don’t really see that much or too much in your photos and you don’t really or you go like to go out and challenge yourself with like the layers and stuff so you you still go to like like street events I mean like fairs or like parades or whatever or is that less
Less your thing.
Matt Hall (31:39)
No, I still do, because still the opportunity to shoot in the way I do shoot. So one of the tricks is trying to isolate somebody within a crowd. What I don’t normally do is go to demonstrations or any political rallies, things like that. It’s another one of those sub-genres of street photography which I can’t leave to other people. The people that are interested in it, the people who are better at it than I am.
Frederic Paulussen (31:48)
Yeah, very tough.
Matt Hall (32:09)
One thing I find is I see a lot of I know a lot of people who do shoot those kind of events and those kind of rallies and if you have a look at their photographs in a lot of them are more photographers, you know, so there’s It’s a really strange environment when I go shooting outside of doing workshops. I’m on my own It’s a very solitary pursuit If there’s somebody else there I get distracted and I’m not in the
right ahead space and you know you can’t really get into the zone as well if you’re with a big group of people but I guess if you’re shooting political rallies and demonstrations you don’t really need to be in a headspace because it’s chaos there’s things happening everywhere and you can have a big group of you and you’re shooting the same things but it’s yeah it’s almost like power in numbers as well I suppose they might feel a bit safer working in a group in those environments
Frederic Paulussen (33:06)
Yeah,
yeah it’s… I have to say like I did a workshop in October it was and it was like I think or five or six of us and it did feel safe for me it did help me get more…
self-assured on the street so now I am more confident to photograph people on the streets but even then like I like I know there’s like very little repercussions on the street most people don’t mind most people even sometimes enjoy being photographed or don’t notice which I find crazy but but I do find like yeah the strength in numbers is still very much at play like I do
experience if I am with another photographer that I’m much more confident to take certain shots. So it’s funny for me that it’s reversed with you, like you prefer to go out alone because you don’t have the other photographer looking over your shoulder or…
Matt Hall (34:05)
It’s more a case of it’s the distraction thing. It’s and also that you but if you see something you invariably see the same thing as the person you’re with so you either have to say okay you have this one you know or or you have to be bullish and say no I’m taking this shot but it’s a weird thing when I’m out shooting I want to have every shot you know I don’t want somebody there to to steal the same thing
Frederic Paulussen (34:15)
True, yeah.
Yeah.
No, I get that,
Matt Hall (34:33)
Also, sometimes it does, you do need to be in the zone. need to like, especially if you’re wanting to work the layers and you can see something and you get the space and it’s quite tight. If you’re shooting through a scratched window, for example, on a specific part of the wall, you can’t have somebody else there next to you. And so what are they going to do when you’re doing that? They’re just gonna be standing around being bored.
Frederic Paulussen (34:53)
No, yeah.
Matt Hall (34:59)
So I’d rather not hold anyone up. It’s like, you do your thing, I do my thing. There’s a street photographer, another street photographer you’re probably familiar with that works Cambridge called Craig Whitehead. sixstreetunder yeah, So we’ve known each other for years and we’ve shot the same streets over and over and over again. And a lot of our stuff’s fairly similar because we’re shooting the same streets and whatnot. We know.
Frederic Paulussen (35:00)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I’ve got his book even,
Matt Hall (35:28)
how the light moves around the city. But we’ve started doing collaborative workshops. We started doing them last year. And it’s amazing that although I’ve known him for this long, we’ve never really shot together. Maybe we did it for an hour, one day. And so I’m learning how he takes photographs. it’s amazing because I always assumed he’d be the same as me, but everyone’s got their own styles of shooting. Even Nick, you’re coming up with the same results.
Frederic Paulussen (35:55)
Yeah, habits,
Matt Hall (35:58)
Yeah, it’s quite educational.
Frederic Paulussen (36:00)
Yeah, it’s true. Yeah, that’s also why I do this podcast because it’s, I think it’s funny how we street photographers, we like to communicate and we like to work together with each other. But at the same time, street photography is a fairly solitary activity. So it’s like, we have to talk and connect more, I think, and talk more. And you learn a lot from just looking at someone or just hearing from someone how they act. It’s also because I had a lot of questions at first.
Matt Hall (36:19)
Mm.
Frederic Paulussen (36:29)
because I have a website and I saw on the search results people were looking for example for best street photography lens but there’s no real answer but talking to other people people can inspire you like for example a few months ago I was talking to ManIa de Praeter and she used a 24-70mm lens which by coincidence I have here in front of me but it’s just because I haven’t put it away yet
But I don’t like it for street photography. It’s too bulky, it’s too annoying for me. It gives me too many options. I like to have a prime lens. But I did go out and try it because it was like okay maybe she’s onto something. And then I remember Thilo Jeahnig, he kind of sold on that lens now. It’s like the 28mm which for me was way too wide but I was like okay let’s try it. And I think there’s no correct lens but it’s just like find out what works for you.
But listen to other photographers, see what they’re doing. Try it once, try it twice, and then decide if it’s for you. But it’s like, I’ve read these books where it’s like, 50 millimeters is the right street photography lens, which I enjoyed and I believed for a long time. And I like the 50 millimeters by coincidence, but there’s like no real answer. But looking to other photographers, it can inspire you to try new things and find the right way to work for you.
Matt Hall (37:54)
you could yeah like I said there’s no right answer people message me all the time about what lens do you use what camera have you I want to do street photography what camera have you got because I can tell you all of these things I can even tell you like what settings I use but you know you’re shooting a different location different lights you know it’s not going to turn you into a street photographer you know
Frederic Paulussen (38:16)
No, yeah, true, yeah. Like I have…
Matt Hall (38:18)
just get a
basic camera, get out there and just start taking photos and then you’ll start working out what does work.
Frederic Paulussen (38:25)
True, even with your phone you could try and see, you have several lenses in that so that’s super easy. So let’s turn back to the people and the silhouette in your photos because a lot of the time there’s a lot of questions about, I got one recently but it’s maybe not really relevant for you, GDPR in Europe, I’m not sure if it’s still…
Matt Hall (38:28)
Yeah, totally, yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (38:55)
works in the UK. But like yeah in street photography of course there’s a lot of privacy concerns. Is that something like why you start silhouetting or is it more like because you just find it aesthetically more interesting?
Matt Hall (39:08)
For me it was the challenge initially and as I’ve said before yeah I mean it does help if someone does confront you and say oh did you take a photo and you show them the silhouette there’s there’s not really any comeback from it they might say delete it because it’s like well how do you go and prove it to you you know so but for me primarily it was the challenge of me how can I elevate my photograph
of somebody walking, just a normal, think they call it stride-bys, someone just walking past a backdrop. How can I make that more interesting? It’s like we’ll make it silhouette or try and obscure the person by using false perspective or, you know, just focusing in on something in the foreground so that the human elements slightly out of focus and again you can’t tell who they are. Yeah, it was that kind of thing. I just wanted to just challenge myself to think how can I improve the photograph.
Frederic Paulussen (40:02)
Yeah, that’s cool. And is it like, did you saw it inspired by someone else or is it just like something that you, because what I noticed in your first minutes of the conversation is like you really like stumbled into, rather stumbled sounds like very inconsiderate, it seems like a very natural evolution for you, how you went about a lot of things in photography. Was that?
the silhouette, was that something you just saw in a photo of yourself and tried to continue, or is it something that you got inspired by?
Matt Hall (40:38)
It was something that I accidentally got and I think I kind of ruined the shot. I think it was someone like half in half out of shadow. There’s a great street in Cambridge where you get some really good angles, strong shadow points on the ground. And it was there and I started sort of just experimenting and see how can I use this light? Do I want the face in shadow and the rest of the body in light?
just a hand or an arm and it really was I’ve got loads of body part pictures where there’s parts of people are emerging out of the shade but then for me it was a case of right now I just want the whole person in there but still retain some kind of definition of the human element so in that respect yeah I’ve kind of moved on to the full body but yeah I mean also there’s quite a lot of other photographers on Instagram
when I started doing similar things, Craig being one of them. And I’ve always loved his work, like Joshua Jackson, his work, amazing. So yeah, as well as the past masters, there’s also the contemporary street photographers as well. Yeah, hugely inspiring.
Frederic Paulussen (41:54)
Yeah, do you find yourself looking at other people’s work a lot or is it more like once in a few times you go through a book or through Instagram and it kind of inspires you or?
Matt Hall (42:04)
I
know a lot, like said before I’m not really a gearhead I don’t spend a lot of on gear but I do spend a lot of money on photo books so yeah, of photo books because I just love looking and poring over those kind of images and just thinking wow how have they done that and a lot of the stuff especially the past masters you’ve got these are places I’ve never been to and maybe will never go to and I definitely won’t go to them when it was taken maybe 50 years ago
Frederic Paulussen (42:13)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (42:34)
So you’ve got that whole nostalgia element to it as well. You just think this is incredible and you only hope that some of the photographs I’m taking today will hold some kind of gravitas that these guys have got.
Frederic Paulussen (42:48)
Yeah, but that’s what I find so interesting, talking about the gravitas of their photos, it’s like, because they were in like, it was a totally different era, of course, in time, but also in like how the, let’s say market, it sounds so corporate, but like how the world of photography was like, there was less resources, like I think like less photos in general as well. So it’s like,
It’s like would those photos held up today? and some without question would. It’s like sometimes I’m like, if someone made that photo today, would it be such a classic photo? And it’s, yeah.
Matt Hall (43:33)
Yeah, it’s
hard to know really isn’t it? think because there’s just such a wealth of photographs now of similar scenes, yeah, it probably wouldn’t hold as much weight. But yeah, you never know. Let’s say time, some photos I’ve taken, I just think, oh, they’re terrible, but you kind of sit on them and think maybe in 50 years time.
Because you’ve got that nostalgia element and you look back at the street signs that are really familiar to us and quite boring and overwhelming because they’re Maybe in 50 years time we just think, oh yeah that’s amazing, I remember that street as it was. I can look at photographs now, more historical photographs, not necessarily street photography, photographs taken by the masters of street photography.
they still like make me think this is amazing it’s such a great photograph because it’s got all the old street signs and there’s people milling around yeah it’s i think it’s just the nostalgia thing and the interest in history
Frederic Paulussen (44:39)
Maybe
do you revisit your own photos a lot? Because you mentioned like sitting on your photos.
Matt Hall (44:46)
Not really, Maybe some of them. It’s just because the way social media works, the way Instagram works especially, I find myself reposting a lot of stuff because to churn out content for every single day is almost impossible. Especially when you get to a point where you’re incredibly self-critical and I can go out and take photos for a day and just think they’re all terrible. No, no, I don’t really do anything.
them at all. format the card kind of thing but the process was still the important thing in my head for me on that particular day. So yeah, what I’m doing I’m just reposting a lot of old stuff and it’s almost like I’m constantly reviewing my old material in that way. I’m just thinking does this still have it? Is it still good? Does it still represent what I do? Some make the cut and some don’t. yeah, you’re almost creating that classic.
volume of your own work in doing that.
Frederic Paulussen (45:49)
Yeah, okay, makes sense. I’m coming at a point that I start to have all older work, so I’m starting to look into it, But it’s like, yeah, for me, it’s like all the work is like a year old, but I see the evolution, but I can imagine, over like how long was it? Eight years or nine years, you said? Like I can imagine there’s like a big portfolio and a big…
big chunk that’s maybe not really cutting it anymore.
Matt Hall (46:21)
Yeah there is, I mean there’s loads. It’s all about the process and the journey. I don’t know why I’m saying that, it sounds a bit… But it really is, you just think, okay yeah, for me. And also yeah we were going about how times were different back in the old days. Think about the way Vivian Mayer used to shoot. She used to go out, take photos that she’d never even print. It was all about the process and it was her pastime and it was like her, yeah that’s what she enjoyed to do.
Frederic Paulussen (46:26)
Hmm.
but I get it, yeah.
Yeah.
Matt Hall (46:51)
and that’s kind of the same for me. I still prefer the process than the end result. It’s kind of why I still prefer to take the photos than do the editing. So yeah, that’s one thing I try and push on the workshops as well. Having a creative outlet as photography or music or any kind of art, it’s a great thing for your head.
or even if you go to the gym a lot, just having that outlet, everyone needs something like that for their own mental wellbeing.
Frederic Paulussen (47:29)
Yeah, I think like for me, starting out photography, I underestimated how physical.
Matt Hall (47:36)
Mm-hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (47:38)
A lot of walking, lot of, well if you do it professionally as well, a lot of gear that you have to get with you. Well, not for street photography, but for events and stuff.
Matt Hall (47:47)
Yeah and also long days for the events, isn’t it?
Frederic Paulussen (47:51)
Yeah, there are some long days, yeah. But sometimes, like for example, I have to go to Amsterdam in two days. So then for me, it’s like, okay, I’m there so I can visit Amsterdam and do some street photography there as well. it’s like, sometimes it’s a nice combination. It gives opportunities as well. So, but yeah, some days are exhausting.
Matt Hall (48:06)
Yeah, yeah, that’s fine. Sounds good.
Frederic Paulussen (48:16)
Okay so yeah I wanted to start wrapping up there maybe. I was just curious to like maybe you could tell people more about your workshops, how they work, how they can get in touch to book one or the schedules for your workshops, kind of like that.
Matt Hall (48:33)
Sure, yeah. So I run group workshops as well as one-to-one workshops. My group workshops are maximum of six people. It’s a nice amount of people to walk around with. Obviously, if you’ve got a big group, it’s difficult to keep everyone together, but also you become just this mass on the streets where you’re just getting in everyone’s way. It’s a nightmare. It’s also quite difficult to impart information to everybody as well. So I keep the groups pretty small.
Frederic Paulussen (48:52)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (49:00)
and I do one in Cambridge every month and then one in London every month. The days differ but my website has all the information on that.
Frederic Paulussen (49:11)
And those
other groups and the one-to-ones, just like, whenever, or…
Matt Hall (49:15)
Yeah
the one-to-ones are whenever. I mean I’ve got my booking site again available through the website is you just go on there and pick a day that suits you and then pick a location and currently I’m doing Cambridge and London and also Canterbury which is another small town, beautiful historic town here in the UK and then in summer I also do Margate which is where I live which is a lovely seaside.
Frederic Paulussen (49:44)
Only in
summer or?
Matt Hall (49:45)
Only in summer because it’s so small. There’s just no footfall. And I like to watch it, but at least guarantee there’s going to be some people to take photographs of. So, yeah, I try and I try not to promote Margate until summer time. Where there’s more people about and there’s great lighting. It’s a lot easier. And then on top of those workshops as well, I also this year I’m going to build on the collaborative workshops I did with
Frederic Paulussen (49:50)
Yeah.
Matt Hall (50:15)
Craig Whitehead going to continue doing them with him but I’m also going to them other photographers as well.
Frederic Paulussen (50:23)
And so
what’s a collaborative workshop is like both of you take a day or how does that
Matt Hall (50:28)
So we’re both there, so it’s basically two tutors. then, so with me and Craig, people get different ways of shooting similar scenes, but to get similar outcomes. It was also a good opportunity for people to sort of pick our brains about how we shoot, ask any questions, those kind of things. Because sometimes these other photographers don’t really do workshops at all.
it’s a easier for them to do it as a collaboration. Later on in the year in March I’m doing one with Gareth Danks who’s a YouTuber and is a commercial photographer. Great guy, great street photographer as well. So yeah that’ll be a fun one as well. And that one’s going to be in Bristol so that’s sort of the western side of the UK.
Frederic Paulussen (51:14)
Okay.
And is that like a new city for you as well? Or is it like you get to know the place in advance or?
Matt Hall (51:27)
Sorry, I didn’t get that.
Frederic Paulussen (51:29)
sorry, so like Bristol, is that for you like a newer place or is it something you really research as well or?
Matt Hall (51:37)
I’ve shot there a couple of times, Gareth knows it a lot better because it’s closer to him. But what I find, I’ve got a lot of people in the country who struggle to get over to the eastern side of the UK. And so it would just be nice to give them an option to do a workshop over there. And then, throughout the year, I’ve got some other photographers lined up. I haven’t announced them yet, so I won’t be able to announce it to you yet.
Frederic Paulussen (51:42)
Yeah.
That’s cool, yeah, okay.
No, no, yeah, I’m linking
your website in the show notes and in the description so people will find it whenever they listen to it, what the next workshop is.
Matt Hall (52:12)
fantastic yeah people can DM me on Instagram or drop me an email if you need any more information it’s all on there but I try and make it try and open up the workshops as early as possible but yeah I don’t have specific dates
Frederic Paulussen (52:16)
Okay.
No, I can imagine, No, that’s great to hear. So yeah, I’ll put all your information in the description, also in the show notes so people can find you if they haven’t already because, I mean, you’re a big photographer by now. So thank you, Matt, for being here and see you maybe in a workshop in Margate maybe. In the summer, yeah, I won’t come in winter, no.
Matt Hall (52:50)
In the summer. Okay, yeah,
well thanks again for having me on. It’s been lovely talking to you Fred and yeah, take care.
Frederic Paulussen (53:01)
So.
Matt Hall (53:00)
Cheers.